管理層發言
Good morning, and welcome to the Vivid Seats Third Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. Following management's prepared remarks, we will open the call for Q&A. I would now like to turn the call over to Kate Africk.
Good morning, and welcome to Vivid Seats' Third Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. I am Kate Africk, Head of Investor Relations at Vivid Seats. This morning, we issued our third quarter financial results. The press release as well as supplemental earnings slides are available on the Investor Relations page of our website at investors.vividseats.com. During the course of today's call, we may make forward-looking statements within the meaning of federal securities laws. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially, including the risks and uncertainties described in our earnings press release, our most recent annual report on Form 10-K, our subsequent quarterly reports on Form 10-Q and our other filings with the SEC. On today's call, we will refer to adjusted EBITDA, which is a non-GAAP financial measure that provides useful information for investors.
A reconciliation of this non-GAAP financial measure to its corresponding GAAP measure can be found in our earnings press release and supplemental earnings slides. This morning, we also announced a leadership transition that is effective today. Lawrence Fey, who has served as Chief Financial Officer since 2020, will succeed Stan Chia as Chief Executive Officer. Additionally, Ted Pickus, who has served as Chief Accounting Officer since 2022, has been appointed as Interim Chief Financial Officer until a successor is identified. Accordingly, Larry and Ted are joining me today on the call. With Larry's extensive history with Vivid Seats dating back to 2017, the Vivid Seats Board believes he is uniquely qualified to navigate the evolving industry environment and steer the company back to growth. Larry will share more detail on his vision for Vivid Seats next chapter today. And now I would like to turn the call over to Larry.
Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. First, I would like to discuss the leadership transition and express my gratitude to Stan for his leadership and service over the last 7 years. His accomplishments include successfully leading Vivid Seats through a global pandemic, bringing Vivid Seats to the public markets and launching key innovations such as the Vivid Seats Reward program, which provides a foundation on which we will continue to build as we deliver a unique and leading value proposition to our customers. I recognize the responsibility of this role and I will look to take decisive action to reverse recent trends and build a resilient business well positioned for long-term success. The core pillars of our strategy start with the foundational advantages that have been in place at Vivid Seats for years and build from there. There is much work to be done, but the foundation to return to profitable growth is in place, and our path forward is clear.
Vivid Seats has long been known for its leading tech capabilities, unique data and focus on efficiency. In recent years, as paid search has become more competitive and customer acquisition economics have become strained, Vivid Seats has increasingly invested in its app with a focus on building a loyal and recurring customer base. We are now increasing our focus and investment in delivering a leading value proposition to our customers. Alongside our loyalty program with rewards redeemable in the app, late in the third quarter, we launched our lowest price guarantee also in the app. We believe the combination of our lowest price guarantee and our loyalty program represents the most compelling value proposition in the industry, and we are already seeing positive responses from our customers. With our enhanced value proposition, we expect to see a growing number of app users and resulting transactions.
Our app users return more often, convert at a higher rate and touch performance marketing channels less. Over time, as our volume increasingly moves into the app, our performance will be increasingly insulated from the heightened competitiveness we have seen in performance marketing channels in recent years. Further, we believe that information transparency will only increase as AI proliferates and impacts the way consumers interact with brands across the Internet. It will take time to build comprehensive awareness of our enhanced app value proposition, but we are confident we will disproportionately benefit as AI reshapes consumer discovery and decision-making as we match consumer demand with the most compelling value in the industry. One of our initial efforts to build awareness of our app value proposition is our recently renewed partnership with ESPN. With ESPN, we have launched a national marketing campaign on Disney streaming, which is reaching more than 127 million global subscribers across over 700 live sports events monthly.
We are excited to see how fans respond to our new offering as awareness continues to build. We believe our investments in delivering a leading value proposition will drive order volume but reduce our take rates. Funding these investments in a sustainable manner will require a commitment to operating the most efficient platform in ticketing. We will focus on operating as a lean and agile organization enabled by powerful technology and unique data. We announced the cost reduction program last quarter, and we are now more than doubling our fixed cost reduction target from $25 million to $60 million. We have made substantial progress towards our updated target with savings spanning fixed marketing, G&A and stock-based compensation. Both these savings and our considerable reinvestment in our app value proposition are reflected in our initial 2026 guidance. Continuing with our theme of driving efficiency through clear focus, we executed our corporate simplification agreement, which included the termination of our tax receivable agreement and the collapse of our dual class share structure early in the fourth quarter.
The corporate simplification will yield substantial immediate and ongoing savings. As part of the termination, we issued approximately 400,000 Class A shares to the former TRA parties. In return, we will avoid $6 million of cash TRA payments otherwise due in Q1 2026, while capturing up to $180 million of lifetime tax savings, subject to generating sufficient profitability. In addition, by simplifying our structure, we expect to save approximately $1 million per year from reduced financial reporting and compliance costs while also removing tax inefficiencies in our structure. At current levels of profitability, we anticipate our annual cash income taxes to be approximately $3 million. The savings between our cost reduction program and corporate simplification will create a more focused and agile organization, one that can invest strategically for growth while maintaining discipline and profitability.
Next, I'll address trends in our third quarter results, which we believe validate our path forward and underpin our initial 2026 outlook, which Ted will provide. While private label remains under pressure, we are encouraged to see stabilization and early signs of momentum across our owned properties. Against the flat sequential industry backdrop, Vivid Seats and Vegas.com delivered sequential GOV growth, while the Vivid Seats app delivered double-digit sequential growth and returned to year-over-year GOV growth. This is a direct result of our ongoing investment in product development and our enhanced value proposition. As we look to the fourth quarter and into 2026, there are no quick fixes, but our priorities are clear. We are committed to improving our financial performance by leveraging Vivid Seats foundational advantages, including leading technology, unique data, best-in-class efficiency and continued investment into a unique and differentiated value proposition.
Now I'll turn it to Ted to discuss the quarter and financial outlook in more detail. As we mentioned earlier, Ted, our Chief Accounting Officer, will take on the role of Interim Chief Financial Officer. Ted has been at Vivid Seats leading our accounting function for more than a decade. I have full confidence in Ted, and I'm glad to have him step into the interim CFO role as we manage our leadership transition.
Thank you, Larry, and hello, everyone. I am honored to be with you today and to assume this role during a transformational time for the business. Turning to our results. In the third quarter, we delivered $618 million of marketplace GOV, $136 million of revenues and $5 million of adjusted EBITDA. These results reflect an intense competitive environment that impacted our private label business, which was also impacted by the loss of a large partner. We generated $618 million of marketplace GOV in Q3, which was down 29% year-over-year. Total marketplace orders were also down 29% with average order size flat. Looking at sequential trends compared to Q2 of this year, overall marketplace GOV was down 10% due to private label headwinds, while owned property GOV increased in a flat sequential industry environment. We generated $136 million of revenues in Q3, down 27% year-over-year. Our Q3 marketplace take rate was 17.0%, down from 17.5% in Q3 2024.
We expect near-term take rates in the 16% range. Our third quarter adjusted EBITDA was $5 million, down substantially from the prior year due to lower volume, lower take rates and negative operating leverage. We expect improved operating performance as we enter 2026 with the full benefit of our recent cost reductions. Next, I'll address our 2026 initial outlook. With stabilizing owned property volumes, we expect 2026 marketplace GOV in the range of $2.2 billion to $2.6 billion. At the midpoint, this assumes Marketplace GOV roughly in line with our third quarter run rate. We intend to reinvest cost savings into our enhanced customer value proposition and as such, currently anticipate $30 million to $40 million of 2026 adjusted EBITDA. Our 2026 initial outlook assumes industry volumes are flat year-over-year as the core concert on sales season, which provides supply visibility for the coming year has yet to occur.
We ended Q3 with $391 million of debt, $145 million of cash and net debt of $246 million. Against a flat industry environment, we saw working capital continue to consume cash, but at a substantially lower level than seen in the first half of the year. I'll now hand it back to Larry for concluding remarks.
Thanks, Ted. Despite challenging year-over-year trends, the third quarter offered signs of stabilization, including sequential growth in owned property GOV, year-over-year growth in app GOV and substantial cost reduction progress. From here, diligent execution is crucial, but we believe our investment into our app value proposition provides a clear path to return to growth. With that, operator, let's open it up for questions.
分析師問答
Your first question comes from Cameron Mansson-Perrone with Morgan Stanley.
Ted, welcome to the call. I’d like to hear more about what gives you confidence in providing guidance for 2026 this early, especially considering the recent pressures in the business. I understand your points about stabilization, but I would appreciate additional insight into what is providing you with increased visibility compared to the past. Additionally, could you help explain what is reflected in the high and low end of your guidance for next year in terms of the competitive environment and other factors that might influence whether you end up at the high or low end?
Yes. Cameron, yes, I think you've heard us say in the past that we prefer to give guidance on our Q4 call once the Q4 on sale calendar has run its course as you'll have more industry visibility. And so the important caveat in the guidance we put forward is it presumes a flat year-over-year industry outlook. And I think to your question on what would govern the low end versus the high end, I would start with if the industry under-indexes to flat, that would push you towards the low end. If it over-indexes or grows, that would push you towards the higher end. We certainly saw the Live Nation commentary, which if you interpolate what they said, it feels like they're pointing towards another positive growth year in North America. So hopefully, there is some conservatism built in. We'll learn more over the coming months on exactly where the industry settles out, but we wanted to provide a baseline that we think is reasonably skewed to the cautious side of the spectrum on the industry performance.
Why do we put guidance out, why do we have confidence? I'd point to a few elements. I think one, we obviously pulled 2025 guidance. So it's been a while since there's been a flag or a stake in the ground for folks to look at. You can see a number of changes playing out in Q3, where we talked about our cost reduction initiatives. We talked about some of our reinvestment in our value proposition and lots of puts and takes. And rather than having there be a vacuum where people are waiting in suspense for 4 months on what the net of all of those are, we wanted to distill it down to a target probably goes without saying if competition or competitive intensity reaches new highs, that will pressure. And if they abate, that will be a release valve relative to the range we put forward. But we've assumed essentially a broad continuation of the competitive intensity we've seen in the second half of 2025.
Next question comes from the line of Dan Kurnos with Benchmark Company.
Larry, could you elaborate on the leadership transition? Stan had significant digital experience, so what prompted this change now? I'd appreciate some insight into the timing behind this decision. And about your collaboration with OpenAI for discovery, many are integrating their apps for better visibility. What are your thoughts on increasing visibility through that channel and any other strategies that could enhance the value proposition?
Yes. Thanks, Dan. I'd start with thanks to Stan, of course; we're sincere. Seven years was a great run. I think it was just reaching a time for a shift and preparing the business for the efficiency push that we're embarking on in the near term. To the second question, I think you touched on a theme that is spot on. Yes, we're pushing on the app. And I almost think of the customer universe as 2 buckets, right? There's the new customer acquisition and there's a competitive dynamic around that. And then there's the folks who have already done their research and made informed decisions around which marketplaces they buy from or which marketplaces they consider, and that generally occurs in the app. Where I think there could be a really interesting blurring of those lines or fusion of the 2 as we move forward. If one of the fundamental tenets of AI is increasing information synthesis, increasing information transparency as we increasingly place the best value proposition out into the ether.
We then, of course, have an obligation to make sure that value proposition is digestible by these new AI platforms that are looking for all of the best information to synthesize and distill for customers. But you better have something that's compelling, right? If they do their job and put forward the best value proposition, you better be front of the line. And so that's where we're going with the app. I think in the near term, while we wait for the commerce portion of the AI disruption to fully arrive, we're going to continue focusing on retaining our customers in the app ecosystem. And then we think there's opportunity coming on that customer acquisition as the technology format evolves.
Next question comes from the line of Maria Ripps with Canaccord Genuity.
Larry and Ted, congrats on the transition. Can you maybe share a little bit more color on the competitive backdrop right now? Are you seeing any early signs that maybe some of the competitors in the space are starting to focus more on profitability?
Yes. Thanks, Maria. We've talked in the past a bit about ebbs and flows, and it can be a little dangerous to extrapolate short-term behavior and assume it continues indefinitely. But I would say, broadly aligning with, call it, changes in corporate status, we have seen a shift in competitive posture. It was a fairly methodical increase in share that we saw from StubHub over the last couple of years. It came in waves, but it kind of went one direction. And we've actually seen that reverse and roll over in September and October, where they're now down year-over-year on share. And I think that is directly tied to what we perceive as a shift in marketing aggressiveness. The magnitude, obviously, it was enough to reverse that trend, but it wasn't like a reversion to 2022 or 2023 levels. And we, of course, know that they reserve the right to change their mind and posture as we embark into 2026, but a notable change over the last, call it, 6 weeks to 8 weeks.
Got it. That's very helpful. And then any early thoughts you can share sort of on quality of concert lineup in 2026?
Yes. I'd say, continue to be looking to Live Nation for the prospective views on what's coming. I heard pretty positive commentary when I read the release; I think they touched on what clearly looks like positive North American growth, a skew towards larger venues. Thus far in the year, you get into these year-over-year comparisons where timing just varies slightly year-over-year. But we're in the midst of this year, Morgan Wallen just announced that I think will be one of the top tours of the year. We've seen several others. So at this point, I would say, other than week-to-week variance, it looks like the Live Nation commentary is flowing through in what we're seeing.
Next question comes from the line of Ryan Sigdahl with Craig-Hallum.
In response to the FTC lawsuit, Ticketmaster shutting down TradeDesk for concerts. They're also limiting Ticketmaster accounts even further as it appears as they take more action on pricing. Curious your perspective on this. Does this present an opportunity for Vivid to take share on the POS side? But at the same time, I guess the negative would be how much contraction and negative do you see from a supply standpoint in the secondary ticketing?
Thank you, Ryan. You framed it well in suggesting that any disruption to TradeDesk could actually benefit us, and we believe SkyBox is ready to support customers who may not have access to the full range of services they need for their operations. This situation could strengthen our position. Regarding potential pressures, I believe it's crucial to remember that the foundation of this industry is a well-functioning financial market, where artists and teams actively seek to manage and diversify their risks. There are artists and teams looking to offload risks ahead of their performances, and a robust secondary market plays a key role in facilitating this and benefiting everyone involved. If anyone is violating the established rules, we have consistently stated that we are committed to taking necessary actions to ensure adherence to the guidelines set forth by the artists and primary ticketing platforms.
While there may be bad actors, it remains uncertain how their behavior will change and what impact that will have on the secondary market. We will observe closely to see whether this leads to a contraction or a fragmentation of the market, where smaller sellers emerge to fill any gaps while the overall opportunity stays unchanged. In conclusion, there seems to be a potential positive impact from TradeDesk's situation, along with a possible challenge, but perhaps not due to changes in Ticketmaster's policies.
Then just the other hot topic kind of from an industry standpoint, direct issuance. Vivid has a smaller direct issuance type offering with college basketball crown. But curious what you think about the ambitions of some of your peers in the space on this model specifically? And then kind of to your point on rules of the game, I guess, just your thoughts on direct issuance and the viability of doing that in an accelerated way going forward? And what that potentially means from a secondary marketplace standpoint if that further limits the supply of brokers play?
Yes. I think obviously, strategies are subject to change. And so, just reacting to the way we have seen the direct issuance opportunity defined to date, maybe they change us. But to date, it's been primarily focused as we understand it, on unsold inventory. And so you can imagine regular season baseball games, less popular theater shows where you have well past the event going on sale substantial available inventory available from the primary. And if that gets piped directly into a secondary marketplace, that would represent incremental supply. I think the threshold question for the robustness of that opportunity would start with, is this a supply or demand-constrained industry? And does the fact that you took an event that already had a decent amount of supply and made more available, will that stimulate incremental demand? Or will it cannibalize the eyeballs that you were already getting on the site and to sell more, you still need to get additional eyeballs and spend the marketing dollars to bring them in.
I think our viewpoint has been that generally, this is a demand-constrained exercise, not supply constrained in all but the most rarefied air, right? Like you could see Taylor Swift tickets really selling out, but most events, including World Series, Super Bowl, right? There are tickets available all the way up until the event starts even for the highest profile events. So I'd say we're a bit more muted on our belief of the impact that could have. But we certainly have heard that the ambitions are big, and so we'll keep a close eye.
Next question comes from the line of Ralph Schackart with William Blair.
Larry, I just kind of want to circle back on sort of driving more awareness to the app and sort of the efforts there. I know you talked about having ESPN as a partner to do that, which is obviously a great partner to have there. But maybe you could just sort of provide a little bit more color how you drive more direct traffic here and build more awareness? And would you be contemplating potentially like a marketing campaign or other efforts to grow more awareness to go direct to the app?
Yes, Ralph, we are actively focusing on our brand marketing through ESPN, particularly during Q4, which is our peak sports season. The challenge in this industry has been proving a strong ROI from broad brand marketing efforts, so we are not planning to shift back to that approach. Instead, we will concentrate on more targeted performance-based strategies. Our longstanding position as a leading marketplace has allowed us to sell a large number of tickets and build a solid user base and CRM database. Our initiatives are centered on enhancing personalization and refining our messaging. When we communicate with an improved value proposition, it increases engagement among our existing users. Additionally, as we attract new users online, we want to ensure they understand the benefits that await them, encouraging them to return to the app. Making our targeted audience fully aware of our offerings is central to our strategy moving forward.
Next question comes from the line of Steven McDermott with Bank of America.
Just 2 quick ones. Firstly, for 2026, what World Cup assumptions are kind of built into that outlook?
Yes. We essentially have not assumed a meaningful impact from World Cup. I think that is primarily due to 2 things. One, there's not a lot of precedent that we can rely on, right? The U.S. World Cup in an era with online secondary ticketing has zero precedent data points. When we look at the last 2 World Cups, they are in markets that we basically don't operate in, in Russia and Qatar. And so trying to strike a cautious tone given a lack of conviction beyond that. The second observation, I think it's fairly well documented, but we've seen FIFA be, let's say, quite aggressive in seeking to monetize, optimize their monetization of the event. I think it's safe to assume there will be incremental volume. We will benefit from it. But between those 2 factors, we've opted to essentially disregard it as we've contemplated our outlook for next year, and it would purely represent upside.
Got it. I appreciate that information. My second question is about StubHub. It seems like they have reduced their marketing spending a bit. Would it be accurate to say that the exit rate for Q3 has shown improvement compared to the previous year?
Yes. I think it would be fair to say that over the course of Q3, we saw a shift in their behavior and a corresponding shift in volumes across marketplaces. Yes, that happened closer to the end of Q3 than the beginning.
Next question comes from the line of Bradley Erickson with RBC Capital Markets.
I wanted to follow up on your previous point, Larry. When you discuss the stabilization commentary regarding the owned property business, you mentioned that competitive intensity has eased several times. Is that the primary factor, or are there other influences, whether within your control or from the broader market?
Yes, I think the main factor is the competitive landscape, which certainly matters. However, I would argue that equally or even slightly more important in the short term has been our focus on value proposition. As we increase the volume in our app, it creates a more secure ecosystem. People can bid whatever they want for a Google link, but if someone already has our app, trusts us, and is considering us, they are more likely to choose us. If we present a better offer, it won’t matter who else is paying for the top Google link. You have more control over your own future with the app, which is why we are emphasizing this strategy—to minimize exposure to competitive reactions. This is a long-term strategy; you won’t instantly see a major shift in volume from one channel to another. However, we have observed an increase in the volume transitioning to the app. I believe this is a layered process; each month we welcome a new group of customers who have researched and recognized our value proposition. They will become increasingly loyal, and over time, this will grow into something quite promising.
Got it. And then I appreciate the '26 guide and all you gave the EBITDA numbers. Any color you can give maybe on cash conversion relative to that EBITDA guide?
Yes. I appreciate that question. Yes, I think if we look at our cash obligations moving forward, you have roughly $20 million of net interest expense. We'll have a bit less than $20 million of ex cap software. And then we mentioned in this release that pro forma for the TRA transaction, we'll have about $3 million of cash taxes, primarily from international operations. So you sum those up before you consider working capital, you have a roughly $40 million set of cash obligations. As we've talked about quite a bit the last few quarters, when we're growing, working capital is a source; when we're shrinking, it's a use of cash. And so I think at the epicenter of will cash balance grow next year is do you believe that we can sequentially grow GOV. I think it's reasonable to assume that take Q1 as we lap the private label losses that we saw in Q3, continue to lap those. The overall year-over-year GOV numbers will continue to be down. But if the sequential help because the balance sheet kind of remark to market every quarter is stable and growing, you can see working capital reverse course. And so the base case plan is at the midpoint or better of our guidance, we would expect to be cash generative next year.
Next question comes from the line of Unknown Analyst with Deutsche Bank.
This is Kunal for Ben. Quick one on the outlook, and you just talked about the cash flow consequences that we could see. One thing with regard to the assumptions that underlie that. So are you assuming that the competitive intensity remains at the September and October levels in 2026? Or are you assuming that maybe things go back to what we had seen earlier in this year, and that is what determines the market share that you expect in '26? And then the second one would be with regard to the traffic that you are getting and the traffic that you have on your app. What is different from other providers that makes your value proposition so unique that people will not go anywhere else to shop?
Let me start by discussing the app's value proposition, which I believe is very strong. We've been promoting our loyalty program for several years, and we are still working on increasing awareness of it. Those who discover and utilize our loyalty program tend to make purchases at a much higher rate than average users. Even before our recent enhancements to our value proposition, we already offered a clear best-in-class option. Recently, we have emphasized lower everyday pricing and are constantly innovating on the types of incentives we can offer as customers engage with us over time. If we create an experience where customers recognize that our pricing is the best in the industry, even without considering specific promotions or loyalty rewards, they are likely to have a positive experience. This includes excellent customer service and a seamless checkout process. After that initial experience, customers receive thoughtful recommendations and additional incentives, and as they enroll in our loyalty program, the pricing advantage becomes even more pronounced.
This creates a very appealing long-term experience. While others may offer similar elements, the feasibility hinges on economic factors. For instance, if you are investing heavily in advertising to secure top search keywords, can you still offer lower prices? If you have significant partnership commitments, can you provide these incentives? We believe that our ability to operate a streamlined platform allows us to consistently deliver a top-notch value proposition, and competitors will have to adjust accordingly. Regarding the competitive landscape, it’s challenging to be exact. Over the past two years, we’ve noticed a steady increase in competitive intensity, which we don’t want to overlook. However, we have observed some changes. I would say the current situation is somewhere between what we experienced in September and October and the peak of intensity we saw in late Q1 and early Q2. So, while there has been some retraction from the previous rate, it hasn't fully returned to the extreme levels we encountered.
Next question comes from the line of Thomas Forte with Maxim Group.
So first off, congratulations, Larry and Ted, on the new opportunities and best wishes to Stan for his future endeavors. One question, one follow-up. So Larry, are you seeing any changes in consumer behavior when it comes to the secondary ticket market? For example, when you have a game 7 in a playoff series, are they still willing to pay premium prices for the experience as they have in the past?
Yes. Tom, I would say, as a broad aggregate statement, continues to feel like live events are a central piece of what consumers want to spend their money on. We had a tough World Series comp, right? You can't really get better than the Yankees and Dodgers. And so I think World Series volumes and average order size were down relative to that. But when we look at the World Series relative to every year post-COVID other than the Yankees and Dodgers, this was the second best year. And so I think healthy, robust demand; we're seeing that across a lot of high-profile events. I think we alluded to this last quarter. To the extent we have seen softness, it's more been on the lower end of the market. And I think we actually see that manifest in Vegas more than in our core business. The call it, weekday lower average order size shows have been feeling, I think, some of this much talked about consumer softness.
Excellent. And then I might be a little early in this one. But can you talk about your capital allocation priorities, including reinvesting in the business, international expansion, strategic M&A and buybacks?
Yes. I think for now, it's reasonable to assume that we won't be looking to complete acquisitive M&A that would be, call it, adjacencies. I think we've long believed that there could be a compelling consolidation in the space. And so we would be eager participants in that. But TAM expansion, I think we've got to batten the hatches and focus on the core business. Given the performance on both EBITDA and cash flow this year, I think we'll display a lot of prudence on any cash leaving the system, including share repurchases in the near term. I think we think that there's a very compelling value at these prices, but step one is batten the hatches and assure that we have all of the capital we need to continue investing in all the initiatives that we see really compelling ROIs against such as international. And so we'll keep doing the defend the core. And then once we have a little more of a proven track record of stabilization, return to growth, return to cash, we can open up the aperture a bit.
Next question comes from the line of Andrew Marok with Raymond James.
Maybe on the international part there, I guess, what signals are you seeing in kind of that what you call the core international business that give you the impetus to continue investing there as opposed to maybe rationalizing some incremental cost savings out of that business?
Yes, Andrew, I want to start by saying that we have been pleasantly surprised by how quickly our international business has reached a positive contribution margin. We are already there. To provide some context, Viagogo holds a significant market position in Europe. Consequently, in areas where we have fully competitive supply, such as when the NFL visits Europe, U.S. artists embark on global tours, or during other events where U.S. sellers have a strong presence, we find ourselves with effective supply. When we compete for traffic and attention in these areas with competitive supply and pricing, we have achieved substantial success. The challenge ahead is to expand our presence across various countries, particularly focusing on local events where we can maintain that competitive supply and pricing. From what we have observed, once that supply is established, the ability to market profitably tends to follow quickly. It's a tough journey to reach that point, and that's the path we are currently pursuing.
There are no further questions at this time. That concludes today's call. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect.